Mr DEAN (Windermere - Motion) - Madam President, I move -

That the Legislative Council calls on the State Government to reverse the decision to close the A-team Asperger's Education Pilot Program at the end of the current school year and provide appropriate funding for the continuation of this very successful program for the 2010 school year.

It is an extremely important issue and I would ask that members consider this as I go through some of the circumstances and details identifying why we need this pilot program to continue in this State; not only to continue in Launceston where it is currently operating, but that it be extended to the rest of the State.

I understand that tomorrow or the next day a petition will be presented to the House of Assembly with about 1 200 signatures asking that the Government continues the pilot program in the Launceston area.

I also have some documentation provided by Autism Tasmania Incorporated and I want to read one or two paragraphs from a document that has also been provided to the Premier and the Minister for Education, Mr Bartlett:

'We are calling on you as Premier and Minister for Education to reverse the decision to close the A-Team program and to continue funding for the A-Team for school year 2010 and beyond ...

The A-Team is an autism specific program. It was developed by the Department of Education to support individual children's needs. Changing the program is not in the interest of the children attending the program.

The A-Team provides an autism specific environment. The regular school's challenging environmental factors have been removed such as bells, sirens, room/teacher changes and other teasing children. It provides a quiet environment with appropriate technology set up and available. A specialist Autism program in a regular school will not be able to provide the same environment, it will be "watered down" and any program in a regular school will need to cope with many behaviour problem children and children on Severe Disability Register rather than just children with autism ...

Another Launceston school has a specialist program running in the school yet two children from the special unit also attend the A-Team - there may also be waiting list children at that school. It is also important to note that there is a current waiting list for the A-Team ...

The program is child focused; it provides an important focus on social skills and training. The children who attend the A-Team are able to develop connections, understanding and friendships with children from other schools without being judged or talked about in the playground and this builds a very secure basis for building trust. Some children who are returning to the school system want and are able to make a fresh start with the A-Team, which also allows them to spend time with children who face similar challenges ...

It must also be remembered that this program has significant support within the school community and most importantly that the children involved have developed trust in the program and the staff. The A-Team has made a very positive contribution to their lives.

The Commonwealth Government is spending $190 million over three years in the Helping Children with Autism program. It is disappointing to see that the Commonwealth is spending money on educating both teachers and parents through their "Positive Partnerships" regarding children on the Autism Spectrum, yet your government seems to be intent on closing down a program that is producing just what the Commonwealth plan is encouraging "positive partnerships".

Whilst we understand that this program was set up as a pilot, given its success it is difficult to understand the reasons for its closure. In most instances when a pilot program is successful it is usually expanded not disbanded. If the program closes it is difficult to see what the savings to the Department of Education would be, as the teacher and teacher aide would still be employed by the Department, the cost centre would simply change with no actual savings.'

It just goes on. This is a letter to the Premier that was sent yesterday and a copy was forwarded to me this morning, Madam President, just to put into perspective where we are going in relation to this matter.

On 24 September 2009, I was invited to attend an impromptu meeting set up by a Launceston City alderman, Mr Frank Nott, and parents and teachers with a first-hand knowledge of the traumas suffered by families who were caring for children with Asperger's syndrome. I unwittingly walked into an extremely emotional setting because the people around the meeting table felt despair, disbelief, hardship, isolation, frustration, let down and disappointed at the prospect of the loss of the program - a very successful pilot program that is giving them, their family and their children a new life. This is the A-Team Asperger's education pilot program based in Launceston and currently operating out of Newstead Heights in Launceston in Amy Road.

I pose this question at the outset, Madam President, as was referred to in the previous letter. Why would you set up a pilot program if it was your ultimate intention, irrespective of the level of success of the program, to disband it and in fact not even remotely consider the positive aspects of it? That is assuming there were only a few positives coming from it.

That is the question that continually came out through this meeting that I attended at Kings Meadows. I might add that on my advice the pilot program has been extremely successful in every way possible. I reiterate that it has given families who had absolutely given up hope a new look at life. It has given them the opportunity in some cases to return to work - the mother of one child returned to teaching - and sometimes to resume studies. A number of people present at that meeting gave evidence of how now they were able to return to their university classes and their courses, because their child was being given some support through the A-Team program. Most importantly it has provided a new way forward for many of these children and has given them a new lease of life. It has taught those children that they are important, that those children suffering from this terrible syndrome are not idiots, that they are real people and have a real chance in life.

I think most people are well and truly aware of what autism is and of its impact. Commonly referred to as ASD, Madam President, autism is a developmental disability which affects communication, social interaction and behaviour, and it affects children in all sorts of different ways. Some are impacted on by noise, some are impacted on by colour, some are impacted on by a room, the environment impacts and causes concern for others. There is a raft of issues that children with Asperger's syndrome are affected by in the normal environment, and we need to understand that. It is a syndrome that is currently impacting on a lot of children in particular, and it goes through to adulthood as well. It is now said, I think, that probably one in about 62 or 64 babies suffers from a form of autism .

Ms Thorp - It is called 'being on the spectrum'.

Mr DEAN - Is that so? It is a matter of absolute importance that we have to recognise and deal with, that these children do need specialist support and care.

I downloaded from the Net a document headed Autism Tasmania Incorporated - Helping People on the Autism Spectrum, Their Families and Their Carers. Part of that document reads:

'How can people with autism be helped?

Behavioural methods are helpful in enhancing development in social, language, self-help, co-operation and other basic skills. Special education approaches with consistent, predictable and organised routines can help most children make gains in learning.'

Madam President, that is a very important point to make. It has to be accepted that these children need specialised education, specialist support. The normal school program does not provide these children with the support that they need.

Mr Wing - Is the Giant Steps program a program that can help these children?

Mr DEAN - That operates out of Deloraine and it provides some support and opportunities for children with other disabilities, but I do not think it is specifically for children with autism . The member for Western Tiers would probably be in a better position than I am to outline this. Education and support for these children is so critical, Madam President.

There is a high incidence rate of autism in the country. The pilot program being run in Launceston commenced in 2008 and has been providing for up to 25 children. Specialist education is an important part of providing for children with autism .

I think that I should refer to two of those comments again, or paraphrase them: '… each child or adult diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder' is affected in many different ways and experiences difficulties in day-to-day life 'and requires sensitive understanding and specialist support and intervention … Special education approaches with consistent, predictable and organised routines can help most children make gains in learning'. They are very important points because we are talking about a specialised program here and we are now talking about returning these children to the normal classroom.

You might recall that I had two questions on notice for the Government to identify: the number of these children with Asperger's syndrome, the number of children who are falling out of school. The number of those children who are on distance education. I am told that the figures are quite high.

This is about providing them with the right access to education, specific programs, to meet their needs. It is said that the normal classroom can be extremely traumatising for them and in fact most cannot cope with it and fall out. They fall out of the program.

I had an interview with a senior teacher involved in, and who has a lot of knowledge of, this program but because of the need for retaining the confidence of that person I cannot and shall not mention his name. It was a long discussion with the person becoming very emotional on a number of occasions during that interview. He said things like, 'misguided notions of inclusion are being used to end the program'. In relation to this he went into a position that I will try to explain as best I can. Those of you who have watched a movie Pretty Woman, which starred Richard Gere and Julia Roberts, will appreciate this comment. I watched it on grand final night as I happened to be sitting around not doing anything much and I watched the movie. In this movie Richard Gere picked up Julia Roberts while she was walking the streets as a prostitute. He offered to set her up in a condominium - a condo. Her response to this when she went back to the condo and settled in was along the lines of, 'You are just changing the geography' - making it clear that that changed nothing in her - 'I am still a prostitute'.

What this person was saying to me during this interview was that inclusion is not about putting these kids back into the normal school because they are still children suffering from Asperger's syndrome. You have changed nothing other than the geography, the location where they are. Other than that you have changed not a thing. So regarding the misguided notion here that if you take children with Asperger's syndrome and stick them back in a normal classroom with some special teaching, limited I might add, you have changed everything, you have changed nothing for that child.

Mr Wing - Except the child has lost the advantage of having specialist teachers.

Mr DEAN - Absolutely. That child continues to suffer. That is not the social inclusion that will make these children assimilate into a normal setting. It is a ridiculous notion to think that it will. Ask the many Asperger's syndrome students and families if they have a similar view. It is not a panacea for these kids. I am going through this interview and paraphrasing some of it.

Normal teaching methods are confusing to those students with Asperger's syndrome. They cannot initiate friendships. They want friendships but are unable to make them. What normal teaching methods do for these children is to cause anxiety and frustration.

The normal schedules, as set by schools, are beyond them. They need much more structure and preciseness, precise time of arrival with the specified materials, what door to arrive at, all of the finer detail that is necessary with these children. You just cannot treat them in a similar way that you can treat a child that does not have that type of problem. With social requirements and stories there is a need to explain to them in much detail that other students do not need; that other students can understand. As an example of this requirement reference was made to an event that had recently occurred in a high school which this person has witnessed. An Asperger's syndrome student, a female, arrived at school very agitated and was quite violent. In a discussion with her it was identified that as she was leaving for school she had had an argument with her aunt regarding a scarf that she was to wear. The teacher had to sit her down and tell her in detail why she should wear the scarf and that particular scarf. She was in tears and sobbed quite uncontrollably.

Ms Thorp - Should have let her wear a different scarf, then. I am a special ed teacher; I am a bit different I suppose.

Mr DEAN - Interestingly, this girl had assignments with her that had to be handed in. She could not do it; she could not hand the assignments in because she was so distressed. They were found later in her bag and the teachers were able to get the assignments. I might add that this girl is said to be of above average intelligence; a very intelligent girl. Her assignments that were handed in were said to have been absolutely first class but she could not hand them in until they were later found by her teachers.

These children, Madam President, were once treated as weird and eccentric and, in many instances, ridiculed and abused; a position that, sadly, is still occurring in some cases today. A recent example was identified where an Asperger's syndrome, an obese student, was being taunted by other students. He was made to run and do other things that were quite humiliating. He was getting very upset and he was getting stressed. He was very distressed. Teachers observed it and they went to his rescue. This same student had been with the offending students at another school and he had believed that by changing his name and coming back to this school that they would not know who he was. Again, this child is said to be of above average intelligence. The teachers on this occasion, Madam President, had to set out in detail what he was to do to avoid such humiliation and abuse. He was to refuse them twice, then he was to walk away and, if the abuse persisted, he had to report it to an identified teacher. So, they had to set out very clearly what he was to do if that situation arose again. Unfortunately, as the teacher said, they were confident it would.

What happens to these kids is that they cannot cope with the normal school environment so many go into distance education, they withdraw from high school; many have suspensions and withdrawal from school is common. I will quote from a document shortly of a parent who provided me with some detail of the number of suspensions her child has gone through.

How many autism spectrum disorder kids are doing distance education? That is a question I have asked and I will get an answer to that shortly. How many are suspended? How many have poor attendance?

'These kids do not know the seriousness of hitting another student. It is at high school where all the problems are manifested; adolescent changes are occurring and they have difficulties in understanding what is happening to them. One of my year 10 students has recently withdrawn and cannot take any more.'

The A-Team operates from a room in Newstead Heights centre. Currently 20-25 students with ASD attend for one or two days a week. It is providing a break for these kids from primary and high school. It is seen as a saviour by many of these families. Anne Duncan was the originating teacher and it more or less evolved. It was not an initiative of the Education Department but it was embraced by the department. Steven Murray from Learning Services North office gave support to the program. He saw a strong need for the service. We have talked about the misguided notion of inclusion. The inclusion policy goes back to the eighties when students with ASD were moved back into the mainstream schooling system.

Ms Thorp - And kids in wheelchairs and kids with sight issues and kids with hearing disabilities.

Mr DEAN - I have a hearing problem.

Ms Thorp - There is absolutely no reason any child should not be able to access mainstream education if the supports are in place. You do not exclude kids and put them in special schools. It is wrong.

Mr DEAN - I will continue:

'The word "inclusion" has been taken to mean simply moving special needs kids back into normal classrooms with normal students with an expectation that they would undertake normal classroom education and activities. Special schools were shut.'

Ms Thorp - True. I was there, I know.

Mr DEAN - This is coming from the interview that I had.

'Inclusion should be about looking at the individual and not about putting them all back into the normal school setting. This has ruined the chances of many of these kids and the life that they might have.'

As I said before, to change the geography does not necessarily give these kids a way forward. In fact in many instances it destroys them and affects their families.

It is all very well for the minister to shake her head in relation to this. I would suggest that you need to talk to the parents and the families of many of these children who have first-hand knowledge -

Ms Thorp - I am not denying that some of the comments that you have made in relation to autism and Asperger's have merit, but now you are expanding it to say that the whole inclusion policy is flawed and I do not accept that.

Mr DEAN - I never said that.

Ms Thorp - You are. You just read out a statement that said all we were doing was changing the geography and not doing anything to help the kids.

Mr DEAN - Some of these special kids need special support; that is what we are saying and that is what this person was telling me.

Ms Thorp - This one individual condemning the whole of the Tasmanian education system.

Mr DEAN - An individual who should know in relation to this situation.

Mr Wing - Was he a parent of a child suffering from Asperger's syndrome?

Mr DEAN - No, the person involved is a teacher. I said that. These kids have immense difficulties in working with groups. It is awful for them. You need to structure their everyday activities, you need to spell it out. It takes a special teacher, especially trained in understanding what ASD is about to provide for these kids.

Ms Thorp - That is why we have special education teachers.

Mr DEAN - That is right. That is what we have to have and many of them to cope with these children, but not in the normal classroom. They can have some normal classroom teaching -

Ms Thorp - If they are very good they will be allowed to mix with normal kids. Good on you!

Mr DEAN - Clearly the best model for ASD sufferers is an individual teaching methodology for each student, but it cannot happen because there are too many of these children.

Ms Thorp - That's social isolation - one teacher, one kid - how is that going to improve their life chances?

Mr DEAN - What I am saying is what this person said to me during this interview.

Ms Thorp - I think you have been sucked in.

Mr DEAN - I am not arguing against that at the present time.

The next-best model at this time is the inexpensive A-Team program. It has addressed many of their issues.

Ms Thorp - Has this bloke got shares in it?

Mr DEAN - Madam President, that comment is uncalled for.


Sitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.

ASPERGER'S EDUCATION PILOT PROGRAM

Resumed from page

[2.57 p.m.]
Mr DEAN (Windermere) - Madam President, during the lunchbreak I received a note which says this:

'I was able to catch some of your speech in parliament this morning re the a-Team. Could you please tell me the name of the politician who was interjecting re special education teachers, and in general being very petulant. (I assume she is a Labor politician).

Special education teachers are all very nice, but these kids don't all get aide time. I would love to be able to write to her re her attitude on what is a very important subject'.

Madam President, as I was saying this morning, this is a very important matter. This is not to be downsized or downscaled in any way whatsoever.

Mr Hall - Or trivialised.

Mr DEAN - Or trivialised in any way whatsoever. There are parents out there for whom I have been trying to find words that are suitable to describe their position and I came up with the word 'desperate'. I think that does sum up a lot of these parents and guardians and grandparents who are responsible for children with Asperger's syndrome and autism . They are at a stage where they say that their lives are absolutely on hold trying to do everything that they can to help their child because they know that their child is a good child and they know that their child, with some good support and care and education, will do well and there are many examples of that. These kids cannot be thrown out. We have got to do something about it and that is where I come from and that is why I am very, very strong on this.

The number of people who have contacted me in the past few months, has been astronomical. I did not realise there are as many children out there suffering from Asperger's syndrome as there are. I did not realise that and I confess that. There are many of them out there and, as I said, good kids, good families who need our support.

I want to continue on from where I reached and that was that the next-best model - we were talking about the best model - would be one-on-one, quite obviously, but that can never happen and we can accept that but we do now have a model, Madam President, which is showing and demonstrating that it is a very good program. That is, the A-Team. It has delivered, it is delivering, and it has turned some kids around. I will quote in a moment from a couple of letters I have here to identify with that.

That is where we are coming from. If the A-Team is not the desired model then what is the alternative? The alternative, Madam President, we know is that they will be included back into the normal school programs with, hopefully in some cases, some additional support and some additional education but we know that is not going to happen in every case. In fact, in some cases, the normal school environment, unfortunately, has shown that it has been disastrous for some of these children and for some of these families; many of them. If these kids are being properly cared for in the schools, why are so many of them doing distance education, why are so many of them being suspended, why are so many of them having very poor attendance at their schools, if it were working?

I ask the question here, as I have been asked, is the Premier listening to these people? I think he is, Madam President, because the Premier has given support to the A-Team in the past 18 months to two years since it has been operating. So I think he is listening and we hope that he continues to listen in relation to this matter moving forward.

I went into the interview and I raised a lot of issues that the gentleman raised with me but that interview was given with passion; it was given with emotion; you could detect the frustration in his voice at the time. There was incredible, as I said, frustration in his voice and in what he was saying in this regard. I felt bad myself. I really did feel bad and I might say that there was another alderman, Alderman Nott, who was with me at the time and to see the way he responded to some of this session really brought it home to me that these kids deserve good support and strong support.

Interestingly, many people came forward, as I said, Madam President, to talk to me about this, many saying that they were quite prepared to put their job on the line to do so; they felt so strongly about it. A teacher who must remain nameless, sadly so, said that special support for these kids in a classroom is extremely spasmodic and, for all intents and purposes, does not occur in every situation. When asked what their approach was they said:

'Unfortunately, you ignore them most of the time or have them sit outside the classroom or have them do something else, really to keep them out of your hair.'

It is a tragic position, a tragic statement to make. I might say that when that person was giving me that information he or she was teary eyed, demonstrating some strong emotion because of the position he or she had to deal with. As was said to me, do you neglect the other 18 to 20 or so students that you have in your class to fully concentrate on the one person that you know, in your class, needs more support than anybody else? That is the point that was put through to me.

I then asked this teacher what sort of training they were given to deal with this situation. The comment was:

'Well, we can pick up some bits and pieces off the Net and some other documentation that is provided but basically we have no special training. We know it is a special area for teachers. Some teachers can handle it and do a very good job; there is no doubt about that at all. Our children, very special children I might add, deserve better than this. They deserve this private project, the A-Team, to continue. In fact, they deserve it to be spread around the State; not just for it to be in the north of the State in Launceston, they deserve this to be now moved out around the State. There is not a huge cost involved in it.'

Mr Martin - How much, do you know?

Mr DEAN - The current cost, I am told, is $140 000 to run the A-Team at Launceston, which is a teacher's salary and an aide, already in the Education department, so it is not additional funds that the Education department have had to find.

Ms Thorp - Have you had it explained to you what the core function of the A-Team actually is?

Mr DEAN - I have had an explanation given to me.

Ms Thorp - It is not to teach kids, it is to train up staff.

Mr DEAN - It is to work with them and to provide -

Ms Thorp - No, it is to train up staff.

Mr DEAN - That is part of it but also it is to work with these children and to give these children an outlet, to give these children support. That is what is happening. There are 25 making use of it this term in Launceston, 25 children that are using this program.

Ms Forrest - Are they making use of the program where the training is being delivered to the teachers to assist them to better meet the needs of students? That is what I am hearing it is.

Ms Thorp - That was the idea of it.

Mr DEAN - These children are attending this special school, part of this school, in Newstead Heights.

Ms Thorp - And that is in direct opposition to the knowledge that kids with Asperger's are better off in mainstream settings. That is the best-practice model.

Mr DEAN - The information that I have, and it is provided to me by parents of children suffering from Asperger's syndrome, is that the A-Team, the way it is functioning now, the way in which it is performing its support for these children, has turned their children around. I will read from a document in a moment from one parent who says how it has returned her child to a classroom. There is one-on-one, or in a group with the special teachers.

Ms Thorp - One teacher, you said, and one aide.

Mr DEAN - One teacher and one aide involved in the program in Launceston.

Ms Thorp - 25 kids.

Mr DEAN - I am not saying that there are 25 all at the one time but 25 children they have been dealing with.

There are a lot of issues that I have been referred to. I wish to refer to a council meeting where a motion was moved in relation to the Launceston City Council giving support to the continuation of the A-Team in Launceston. This was, once again, a very moving experience to be involved in because in that process two parents came along to speak in relation to children and their family that were suffering with Asperger's syndrome.

For one lady when she spoke, it was hard trying to control her emotions. She broke down during that meeting and sobbed uncontrollably in the council chamber trying to tell what was happening with her child and the importance of the A-Team moving forward. With the second person it was an almost identical thing but they were more composed in getting their position across. So regarding any alderman that might have wanted to oppose that position of writing to the Premier and minister asking it to be continued, it would have changed them, no doubt about that. They could not have not given support to it.

It was unanimous at the end that the council write to the Premier and strongly urge the Premier to continue with the program because of its importance but also urging the Premier to consider the program for the rest of the State, not just Launceston where it was proving to be very successful.

That was the outcome of that meeting and some of the comments being made were very touching, very strong.

Mr Martin - What is the Government doing instead? Have the Government replaced it with anything?

Mr DEAN - It is not absolutely known at this stage but I am told that they are going to move these children back into mainstream schooling and that they are going to provide, hopefully, some special teaching and support for those children back in the mainstream schools. But I am told that cannot happen. I am told that some schools just do not have the ability to do that. These people are saying that they cannot cope in an ordinary school environment. They just cannot cope with that. There are triggers there that affect them and cause them to do things that they would not otherwise do. So they are saying that the main school stream is just not the place for them the whole time. There are times when they can go back and spend some time at a mainstream school.

Ms Forrest - Are they saying that these children will go back into the mainstream education system without a dedicated carer?

Mr DEAN - That is the situation but, as I understand it, there is a proposal - and I do not have the full facts on this - that there will be special support given to these children back in their normal school.

Ms Forrest - Individualised care?

Mr DEAN - I do not know whether it is individualised care and that is what the parents do not know. It is one of the problems with this.

Ms Forrest - If they were getting individualised care by people who are specially trained to understand and appreciate the challenge of Asperger's and autism , and if there is evidence that mainstream education is the most preferable for children and young people with Asperger's particularly, would that not be a better outcome?

Mr DEAN - I can only go by what I have been told by the parents and some families have two and three in their family with Asperger's syndrome, and what they are saying to me is that they must have this other support.

Ms Forrest - If that support could be provided back in the mainstream, would the parents think that was a reasonable alternative?

Mr DEAN - No, because what they are saying is that an ordinary school is not an appropriate environment for them at all times. They cannot cope in an ordinary school environment.

Ms Forrest - But I am saying, with added support. If they had support in a mainstream school, would that ease those concerns?

Mr DEAN - It is the main school that causes the problems from time to time. It is the environment of that main school which causes problems for them. The numbers of students, for instance. The same teaching methods that other students have, they cannot relate to. They can get through at times.

Ms Forrest - But with the support of someone who is trained to help them integrate, has that been discussed with the parents?

Mr DEAN - It has been raised with the support as to how much support they will get back in that mainstream school. As I understand it, some schools are not able to provide that support and are looking at other opportunities and other avenues for these children to become involved.

Ms Forrest - What I am asking is, have the parents been offered that opportunity to have a dedicated carer in the mainstream setting at those times, particularly when the kids struggle with that particular aspect of education.

Mr DEAN - I do not want to have a guess at that, but none of the parents that I have been dealing with has raised that they have been offered that back in the main school. They have not raised it with me. It is not to say it might not have happened, so I cannot categorically say it has not happened.

Ms Forrest - They haven't said whether they thought that would be acceptable either.

Mr DEAN - No, they have not.

[3.15 p.m.]
I just want to read from some documentation I have from parents of children, and I do not want to identify them because this is one of the issues and problems that we have. Some of these families want to retain their anonymity in these situations because of some of the things that occur, so I will do my best not to identify anybody. I will just read parts of this one, it is headed 'Our Story'. They have three children; 8, 7 and 2. Two have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, so this is a family that really has monumental problems to deal with. I will quote some of the document:

'They attend a mainstream primary school and would always be considered mainstream students' -

because they are intelligent children.

'Whilst my children do not attend the A-Team at the moment it is likely that within the next 6 months my daughter will need its support. She is not coping with the work required from her and does not understand much of what is said during the day ... If you were to visit her class she would be the quiet one, that is almost invisible. She will sit and be compliant' - she exhibits no "bad behaviour". In short she is not a behavioural problem. This is our issue, because she is well behaved it is assumed that she is coping. When she arrives home the tantrums can start within 30 seconds of her walking in the door ... She is currently undergoing therapy with a psychologist to ease her anxiety and help her to understand her world better.

What does the A-Team mean to us? It means should my daughter's or son's condition deteriorate, they have support available to them. This can be a place my daughter can go, where people understand her issues and instead of understanding 50% of what goes on during the day she will understand most of what is said. She will have consistency, without the sensory issues that happen at school. In short, it would be a day she would enjoy and that would lead to a much less stressed household.'

The letter goes on, Madam President, raising issues. I have another letter and once again I just pick a part out of the letter:

'My daughter's eldest child' -

This is from a grandparent, the name is given -

'aged 14 years, also has Asperger's and associated problems coping with life and school. Since these letters were written … has enrolled in Distance Education and also attends A-Team one day a week, thus feeling less stressed and more self esteem.'

This is another letter where I need to be careful because I could quite easily identify the people and it is not my intention to do that. I have paraphrased a couple of comments from this letter to me. A young person, male, missed most of grades 4, 5 and 6, was hospitalised 32 times in a short time and was classified as naughty; was admitted to the Austin Hospital, Ward 1E. The family was told at one stage, that if they tried to stop admission to Ward 1E, the other children would be removed from their family. It was tearing a very good, strong family apart. It was breaking their hearts. There are no words that can describe the trauma, the fear, the anxiety, the pain that this family was enduring. Finally an Asperger's syndrome finding was made. All of this was happening and a finding had not been made. It just shows you what some families go through. It is extremely tough out there.

A comment is:

'Our child had three years out of mainstream schooling and due to involvement with Anne and Kaye of the A-Team last year she is at school now in Grade 6. She has only had 13 days off this year. We have relied heavily on A-Team support this year to make the transition happen. I am happy to share our story if it's not too late.'

Another letter I have received refers to attending the A-Team:

' … is 16 schooled through Distance Education Tasmania for 1 and a half years, he is on the special needs register. We have a support worker come to our home 12 hours a week. He has one class at Kings Meadows in which he is suspended from attending and now the A-Team …'

gives support.

'… attends distance education because the school could not deal with his behaviour. He was suspended more days than he attended class. The school placed him on a part-time timetable so he could attend 3 to 4 classes a week. I work night shift so I can help … with his schooling. I need to be awake for 20 to 36 hours twice a week to help school him.'

… has problems showing emotions often showing the wrong one. Since attending the A-Team … has learnt that he is not stupid and that it is all right to be him.

The A-Team has given us as a family the greatest gifts of all. The first, the day he said he loved us, and this week opening his arms wide for a cuddle (this for someone that hates being touched) small things for most families, priceless for the parents with the kids that attend. That is the point that we look at it.'

When I received that letter it had an animation at the bottom, a little girl sitting on a fence just kicking her legs and playing, cuddling her teddy bear. It was so upsetting to see and to understand what these parents go through.

There are many more like that but I will not go into any more. I think that I have demonstrated the position fairly well. Just before I conclude I want to quote from the opening address of Mr Bill Shorten, Parliamentary Secretary for Disabilities and Children's Services at the APAC 09 conference:

'I was trying to think of a collective noun for people who care about autism , and I was trying to work out, is it a conference of people? And I thought, no, conference is too tame. Is it a protest of people? Possibly, because you should be. But perhaps it's almost an armada; an armada of love, an armada of emotion, and an armada of hope that we can make the world better in terms of the lives of people with autism . Fifteen hundred delegates is a great number ...

I get that autism is a health issue where there is not enough quality information and not enough quality support. I get that autism is an isolating issue where there are too many families who feel isolated and disconnected. I get, in particular, that talking to parents of children with autism and young adults and adults with autism , just how similar your experiences are ...

I am embarrassed at the struggle that families in Australia have to undertake to find doctors, therapists and teachers with experience or, indeed, even with empathy for what it means to be autistic or to care for someone with autism .'

Another paragraph from that address reads:

'We are establishing and moving ahead with our six autism -specific early learning and care centres. Through their affiliations with universities and hospitals - and some of the eminent speakers you'll be hearing over the next number of days are involved in these projects - we will see not only long day care but more significantly a research and workforce training component which can deal or start to deal with some of the long term changes.'

There are a lot of other comments here and members may well have had this document. I would urge members to have a look at this document because it is a very good speech for the opening of this conference. There are two further paragraphs that I will read:

'I do not blame anyone individually. Dealing with autism does require specialist training, a lot of experience, and the recognition that every child is different. We are putting forward trained specialists for autism but so much more needs to be done. We are training more teachers how to understand autism but again, I recognise that this doesn't even touch the sides of the challenge ...

I see the experience of a parent of a child with autism , and indeed the life of a person with autism , as a series of collisions where the system that should be supporting the parents in fact fails and betrays them time and time again.'

I will not read the rest of that speech but it is a very strong opening speech at a conference. Certainly it is very pointed on the extra assistance and support that we owe these families. In conclusion, I strongly appeal to the Government not to let these people down, not to aggravate the situation or take away their one last hope, the chance of real and meaningful support. These children in many respects can be the most adorable children; they can also be the most exasperating children. And these are words that I have taken from parents that have talked to me about this and brought their concerns to me. They can also be prone to violence. One father told the story of his son who was screaming and shouting and punching and hitting to such an extent that the next-door neighbours called the police. When the police arrived at his home, butter would not have melted in the child's mouth. The police asked why they were called; what was wrong? That is what happens with some of these children.

These kids need special help, Madam President. This pilot program provides that special help and a time out that is important to them. It provides them with a nurturing environment that is structured to meet their educational needs in a way that they can understand. If these children can get the support they need in a way that is specifically structured to address their particular circumstances at an age that they can take it on board, in most cases they can become independent, contributing members of society. Many of these children are extremely intelligent children. Please do not take away the opportunity for growth that this pilot program provides to these children. I commend the motion to the Council.

Mr Martin - I listened with great interest to your speech before lunch; I missed probably about five minutes at the start. If this is a pilot program, was there an evaluation report done?

Mr DEAN - No. As I said, it does not really matter how successful this program has been; it would seem it was always destined to be stopped for whatever reason, and there is no evaluation. A lot of these parents and teachers were wanting a full evaluation of it to see what it does return to these families and to these children. My understanding, on the information that I have, is that there has been no absolute evaluation done of it.

Mr Martin - So, a pilot program with no evaluation?

Mr DEAN - That is how I understand the situation with the information that I have.

Ms Thorp - I have never heard the word 'pilot' used.

Mr DEAN - I am frustrated, Madam President; of course I am. I make no apologies for the way in which I put this today because these kids matter to me and I would suggest that they matter to all of you. We need to do what we can to help them move forward.

Mr DEAN (Windermere) - Madam President, I would like to thank all the speakers who contributed to the debate. Some interesting and important issues were brought up by all members. I think it is a subject that we have all learned a lot about in recent times. I certainly have and I said that at the beginning. I learned a lot during the last two months in which I have been closely associated with the parents of a lot of these children. I also have some personal knowledge from a member within my own family as well involved in this sort of situation.

It is interesting that Autism Tasmania have had a big part to play in this whole thing. Autism Tasmania have provided correspondence on this that this program is the best thing that has happened for children with ASD for a long period of time. They are saying it is critical, they are saying it is important and they are saying that they want this program to continue. In fact I quoted at the beginning from a letter that they have written to the Premier and the Minister for Education, Mr Bartlett, appealing to the minister and Premier to continue with this program, to fund it for a further period and for the minister to consider opening up the program for the rest of the State. That is where Autism Tasmania fit into this. They understand it well, they have looked at it and they have been a part of the program and they understand it infinitely.

There are a couple of points I want to clarify. When I was talking of the interview that I had and I went into that at some length, I cannot identify the gentleman I spoke to and I would think that from some of the comments that I made he probably could be identified. I think it would be tragic if that were to occur. That person is a very passionate person, he is a very professional person and is, without doubt, one of the best teachers that we currently have. I was not expecting the comment to be made and I do not want to make a big deal of it now, but I think that it was out of character for the minister. I have always given absolute support to the Minister for Human Services and I admire what she does and how she goes about her business. It is a very difficult area and I do recognise that and I think that it was definitely out of character. To say that this gentleman is condemning the whole of the Tasmanian education system is not right. He has worked in the education system for a long time and is one of the highest-credentialled teachers that we currently have and he is doing a fantastic job. He certainly was not condemning the education system. He was certainly anxious and passionate about wanting the pilot program to continue. I think he will be extremely upset to think that that comment has been made about him. That is not where he fits at all.

Regarding the comment about this bloke having shares in the program, he has 'shares' in it right enough; his share in the pilot program is that he can see the value of it to these children suffering from ASD. He is passionate about wanting it to continue in support of those children and their families; the parents, the guardians and everybody else who have these children and need to support them. They want the best for them. That is where he fits; that is the 'share' that he has in this. From that comment one could take it that it is suggested -

Ms THORP - Madam President, may I make a point of personal explanation?

Madam PRESIDENT - As the member is closing debate, in case he wishes to make comment I will allow it, but it is usually appropriate that a point of personal explanation comes in after the member finishes speaking. In view of the fact that the member is happy for you to make that point of personal explanation in case he wishes to make a comment, I will allow it on this occasion.

Ms THORP - Thank you, Madam President. I apologise for any offence I may have caused by what I meant as a throwaway comment. Where my passion is coming from is that the honourable member's debate seemed to be straying away from the merits or otherwise of this particular program - which I do not think anyone has questioned - more into the general domain of the value of mainstream education.

Coming from my background, I have heard over the years many people talk about the fact that inclusion does not work if the support is not there so with that in mind I was feeling extremely strongly about the issue and made that throwaway line. It was certainly not intended to insult or otherwise embarrass any other person and I unreservedly apologise if it could be interpreted in that way.

I would hope that it is not my manner on normal occasions, but given that on occasion people like to take advantage of slips of judgment, I thought it best that I put that on the record.

Mr DEAN - I certainly accept that position and if it is raised with me - which it may be - I will certainly articulate that very clearly. It certainly was out of character. I thank you for that.

I do not need to talk any more about that, but I thank members for their support of this motion and I urge the Government with the Premier and minister to really think seriously about the continuation of this program or an equivalent of it, as the member for Murchison raised. I do not know whether that can be provided in the schools because that is one of the issues that causes some of the problems with these children going there on a continuous basis.

Ms Thorp - Madam President, if I may, I would just like to reiterate that the point of this program was to skill up schools so that this particular care and education could be provided within the schools. There was an identified need that some schools had a varying degree of expertise when it came to dealing with children with Asperger's so the program was set up to train the teachers and the aides to enable that to happen. It was certainly never ever intended to be an alternative education facility.

Mr DEAN - That being the situation, Madam President, it would seem that the benefit that has been provided to these children as a result of the program that was set up to teach the teachers, as it were, has been extremely beneficial to the children and to the families so that has probably been -

Ms Thorp - If that is the case then the children should be back in the schools.

Mr DEAN - The member for Launceston might have mentioned the fact that the program has probably been too successful.

Ms Thorp - No, because if it is successful the children are back in the school and they do not need the alternative provision.

Mr DEAN - There are lots of issues there, but I would urge the department to continue with this program and provide this service to the families who are really calling out for help. I have had information from a number of parents about what it has done for their children, how it has now turned those children around who are now doing well at school, and who now have a very good and bright future, and that is what it is about.

Motion agreed to.