A lot of issues were raised this morning, Mr President, that were fairly new in fact, and it does take time now to look at those issues properly. As late as an hour ago I was receiving information from the public in relation to this bill providing me with advice also.

This morning I received about 30-odd e-mails again in relation to the bill. The public have been caught somewhat on the backfoot as well with the speed with which this matter has come up and they are still bringing information through. There is the need to digest that information. There is a need to have the right position on this bill.

I have already prepared one amendment. There are a number of other amendments that I am contemplating at this stage should the bill be successful and I know that a further adjournment is necessary for me to be able to properly prepare and put my position to this Chamber at the appropriate time.

Mr DEAN (Windermere) - Mr President, at the outset I looked at reasons as to why I should support this bill and at reasons as to why I could not support it. I guess, having regard to my previous occupation as a police officer, I looked at what it could do. One of the areas I looked at immediately was whether it would be likely to prevent rapes and some of the other atrocious activity that occurs. I must say, I was unable to find any evidence anywhere that would support that contention. I read in a document that was provided to me that it does, but I could not get any other information anywhere that really supports that position.

I want to refer to a phone call that I received yesterday in relation to this legislation. Like all other members of this Chamber, I have been receiving calls, e-mails and letters right up until this morning in relation to this matter and it is ongoing. When I look at the Relationships Bill and the land transfer bill - on which I have received a lot of correspondence - it does not parallel anywhere near what I have received in relation to this matter. It is a very contentious point and it has in fact aroused the views and opinions of a lot of people in this State. I have received literally hundreds of e-mails, telephone calls and letters, and people have been pulling me up in the street and talking to me about this legislation. It is a very critical piece of legislation and one that is causing a lot of concern in the community.

This is a very significant bill and, unfortunately, it is seen by many as this Government further breaking down the family unit. That came through clearly from a number of people who contacted me. I go back to the telephone call I received yesterday from a person who said that he was a strong member of the labour movement. He related a story to me - and I want to refer to that - of the daughter of a good friend of his who was involved in prostitution in New South Wales. As a result of her being involved in that activity in New South Wales, she became very strongly involved and dependent on drugs and she ended up a heavy user of heroin. He says that she then tried to make a move to return to this State with a view to getting out of that industry, to try to break away from the industry. She was given some advice that she should go to the police and seek their assistance and support to try to move out of the industry and rid herself of her habit. This gentleman said to me yesterday that she was convinced to go to the police and advise them of everything that was happening in the brothel she had been working in in New South Wales. He said that that went well but she virtually walked out of the police station and overdosed, and subsequently died as a result of overdosing on heroin. He was relating that to me as a tragic situation stemming from prostitution and drugs and saying how difficult it was for the family to work through that and also for him, as a friend of the parents of that young girl. It brings home what prostitution is doing, what is happening out there. It is such a significant matter.

A number of the calls indicated that a lot of people see this as a breaking down of the family unit. That concerns a lot of people. Later on I will refer to some of the e-mails that I received and I will pick one or two out of those so that people get an idea of some of the comments that have been made. Mr President, this is not like a lot of the other situations that I have been involved in in this Chamber. A lot of the letters and e-mails that I have received have not been the roneod type e-mail where a group of people have come together to voice their view in relation to this legislation. Just about every e-mail I have received is different from the others, whilst obviously raising a lot of the same issues, but certainly they are not written in a common way. That indicates to me that people are out there thinking independently about this and it is not, as I said, a major group coming together.

No-one is denying that the business of prostitution has been around forever, but to legalise, legitimise the existence of brothels is to say that this process will be the panacea of those problems associated with prostitution. The member for Rowallan I think referred to it as being a panacea for a lot of the problems that are currently occurring out there in the industry.

There is an abundance of evidence out there to identify the exact opposite. That is, legalising brothels creates far more problems than it resolves. I was going to refer here to some other States and the Netherlands experience, but I do not now think there is any need for me to do that, Mr President, because that has already been covered, and to reiterate that would not serve any useful purpose.

At this time, Mr President, I want to acknowledge the presence in the Chamber of Gareth Higgins, who has -

Mr PRESIDENT - Order. The honourable member cannot refer to anybody outside.

Mr DEAN - I am sorry. I want to refer to him by name. Gareth Higgins has a Bachelor of Arts in political science and is now doing honours in political science, with an ambition of moving into a government area. I acknowledge Gareth in recognition of the extensive work he has done for me on this bill. Gareth undertook this work for me as a parliamentary internship project, and his paper will form part of his honours studies. His paper is entitled 'Proposals to Regulate Brothels in Tasmania - Keeping the Criminals Out', and I asked that that be the subject that he looked at in that project, because I wanted to get the correlation between prostitution and criminal activity. I thank the University of Tasmania and the Parliament for making Gareth available to me for that purpose. His document has been well researched, and I will certainly be referring to parts of it throughout my second reading contribution, and the document will be available, if it is not already available, in the Parliamentary Library for other people.

I want to touch on some of the offences that come from prostitution and, whilst they have been referred to previously, I want to reiterate some of them. Trafficking in women, illegal immigration - that has been covered. Child exploitation is another significant issue, along with money laundering, drug dealing and use. Fronts for underworld activity, and a multiplicity of criminal acts occur within brothels and in activities related to brothels: murders, assaults, rapes, bodily injuries. Many rapes occur in brothels, and that evidence comes through very strongly and clearly. There is soliciting and it even comes down to inappropriate alcohol sales, and there is also lots of evidence of the deliberate drugging of people involved in that business.

On top of all of this, Mr President, we have the pain and suffering that is often inflicted on families - relationship breakdowns, neglect of families. Talking about neglect of families, I think we all heard Shannon, the young lady from Western Australia, when she briefed us last week, tell us of how she had now not seen her two young children for many years as a result of her being involved in prostitution. She has left the industry, but she still has lost contact with her children. That is what I understood the young lady to say. She has left the industry and is now involved with the supporting organisation in Western Australia, but she did tell us how she had been separated from her two young children which she had at a very young age. It does have its impact on families and there would be many other problems and negative things associated with prostitution.

Mr President, unfortunately drugs, booze, crime and prostitution run together - they are all there and all present - and they will run together whether brothels are legitimised or not. It will not make any difference whether we legalise them or not, all of those things will be there and a part of this.

Research clearly demonstrates - and was borne out in research completed by my intern, Gareth - that the legalising of brothels has promoted all of those elements, right across the world, and the astounding evidence is that where brothels are legalised, more illegal establishments mushroom up and crime is not diminished. There is very strong evidence out there for that.

In regard to health risks, as I understand it, the reasoning behind this legislation is to clean up prostitution, get rid of or reduce the current health risks associated with it, to give protection to minors and, to some extent, to cut off the opportunities for criminal activity and to give protection to people working in the industry - certainly protecting children who might be involved in the industry. What some members of the public are saying is that legalising prostitution, Mr President, is likely to bring more into the business and have more people erroneously believe that it is morally right to both work in the industry and/or use the services. That view was confirmed by a lot of evidence that was coming through to me and a lot of comments that were being made to me by people on the outside.

Some fear the impact that it will have on the attitudes of the younger generation and that this is a further step towards degrading the morals and standards of our State. That was coming through very clearly in a lot of the e mails and messages that I received. We referred to the study of Michael Dunne of the University of Queensland - and, again, I do not see any real reason for me to go into that in any detail because the honourable member for Rowallan has referred to it. Suffice to say that his studies revealed that brothels were less safe and less hygienic and the opposite of the expected position was identified. It was expected to clean up all of those things but those studies of Professor Dunne revealed, in fact, the exact opposite.

Should we legalise brothels? My candid response to that question, Mr President, is no, because I do not see it, at this time, making any gains. It will not make the gains that are expected of it. Worldwide, the evidence is, no, do not do it. That is the information and the evidence that I have been able to identify throughout the world. They are saying to us, 'No, don't do it'. It does not satisfy the needs; it does not, at the end of the day, make it a safer industry and it does not do those good things that we believe it might well do.

As we know, prostitution now is not illegal. It is flourishing up there and I would suggest that there are not too many problems currently associated with it in this State.

Mr Martin - Oh.

Mr DEAN - At long last, I hear the member for Elwick make some noise, Mr President, and that is gratifying. If there were really problems out there, Mr President, wouldn't there be a lot more media reference to this? Wouldn't there be a lot more police attention to it? Wouldn't there be a lot more people being charged in relation to this? Wouldn't we have looked at strengthening the laws a long time ago?

Mr Martin - Did you read the parliamentary inquiry?

Mr DEAN - Yes, I have, but there is no other evidence out there of tremendous problems associated with prostitution here in this State. It is occurring - of course, it is occurring.

Mr Martin - So you are saying there are no problems currently.

Mr DEAN - I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is not the immense amount of problems out there that some would think that there might well be in this State. There is no evidence, I am saying.

Mr Martin - We have had evidence sent to us that there are children working in the industry, and you don't have a problem with that.

Mr DEAN - I have a significant problem with that and, to be quite frank, Mr President, that is quite a stupid statement to make. Of course that is a problem to me and I will comment on that a little further on in my second reading contribution.

Mr Martin - You are acknowledging that but you say there are no problems in the industry.

Mr DEAN - No, I am not acknowledging that - I do not know - but I will comment on that a little further on.

I want to mention making it a safer organisation in regard to health and hygiene. There is currently an outbreak of chlamydia, a sexual infection. Interestingly there, the statements made in relation to that did not identify prostitution, as I understand, as probably a likely cause of some of this outbreak, but they referred to, I think, young ladies from about 15 years of age through to about the 25 year age group as probably being the people most vulnerable, and those people were probably carrying that infection and passing that infection on, but I never read anywhere, Mr President, in the press of it being identified or associated with prostitution.

If we go down the track of legalising, I will be surprised if crime and those other bad experiences in Victoria, New South Wales, the ACT, Queensland, the Netherlands and right across the world are not reflected here. Mr Deputy President, the Government should be warned that, if we go down this track, those very things occurring in those other States will arise in this State.

When you look at something like this, the outcome will always be what the instigating party wants, and what I am saying here is that the Government have gone down this track of looking at legislation or a bill to satisfy prostitution, so therefore their findings are going to be in the positive. In other words, the Government have wanted to legalise this profession, so therefore all of their findings will be supportive of that position. What I am saying here is that those people charged with the responsibility of putting this bill together must have totally disregarded a large percentage of the material available on this subject. I think it is clear from the minister's comments in the very early stages when this was being discussed years ago that, come whatever, this Government was going to legalise brothels, and irrespective of what the evidence might well be out there.

I want to quote from the Gareth Higgins study. It says:

'It is recommended that in Tasmania there is a more thorough consideration into why illegal operators may continue to operate illegally when regulatory controls are introduced and what penalties will provide a more effective deterrence to this'.

That comment is not too far off the track, in my opinion, as there is a copious amount of intelligence available to show that legalising brothels does not give the protection expected.

Mr Deputy President, there are a couple of issues I want to flag here. Should this matter proceed through this House, there are a couple of issues that I will be referring to in the Committee stage, and one is location. I have some concerns about locating brothels next door to schools, child-care centres and places of worship. If it gets to that stage, I will be proposing an amendment in that regard, and that will be circulated at the appropriate time.

Just in reference to that, people out there have commented on the exclusion zone or the buffer zone of 200 metres. I guess if we are looking at the protection of these establishments, we do not have to look at 200 metres, in fact we could look at 50 metres, 100 metres, or what have you. It does not have to be necessarily 200 metres.

I want to now refer to a survey that I did, Mr Deputy President. It was a telephone survey that I conducted, and the three questions I asked were should brothels be legalised, should there be a buffer zone around brothels and should all sex workers be registered? The majority of people, about 80 per cent of the people, answered that brothels should not be legalised. Should there be buffer zones around brothels? All, with the exception of one, said yes, there should be. Should all sex workers be registered? The answer there in almost every case was, 'Yes, they all should be registered'.

The age group of the people who were involved in that survey, Mr Deputy President, was from 19 years of age through to quite elderly people in their 90s. It is interesting that in this survey many of the people in the 19, 20 to 25-year-old age group do not support the legislation whereas some of those in the older age group do support the legislation. I thought that when I had this survey conducted it was more likely that the older person would oppose the legalising of this industry.

I just want to briefly refer to some comments that were made in Tim Cox's talk-back program on Monday where the member for Rumney indicated that the Government believes that local government is well placed to undertake the responsibility of administering this bill. With respect, Mr Deputy President, I think that the honourable member may have little understanding of the problems that might be encountered by local government whilst administering this bill. It is interesting that not one business, not one person whom I have spoken to want a brothel next door to them. They do not want one next door to them, nor do they want two people using their home for those purposes next door to them. So one can see the problems that local government are going to have in regard to this legislation. I believe, in the event that the bill is supported, the Government needs to give some clear direction to the councils across this State to ensure that there is consistency or that consistency would apply.

I looked at some of the local government areas, and my background of course is in regard to the Launceston City Council. I believe that their planning scheme will prohibit the locationing of these establishments in residential areas. That is specifically referred to in their planning scheme but in many other local government planning schemes there is no reference to it, as I understand, Mr Deputy President, so there would need to be some quick movements of course by many of the local governments to try to look at where they are going to go in regard to this legislation.

There are a couple of other areas that, once again, should it proceed further, I would be looking at and one would be the fingerprinting of people going into the ownership of brothels. I think that that is worth looking at if we need to do that. Victoria have gone down that path. Some protection to landlords also, Mr Deputy President, is another area that I think we would need to look at and I will of course raise that at the appropriate time.

Do women get into prostitution by absolute freedom of choice? Do they consciously go out there and set themselves up to be prostitutes? Do they enter the industry knowing what the real health and safety risks are and what it is likely to do to them physically and emotionally? I do not believe that they do know and I think the answer to all of those questions is no. It is just interesting, and I will refer to it a little later on also, that when we spoke to Shannon and Linda they indicated to us that when they went into the profession it was identified to them as being a glamour business, a wonderful business to be involved in. It was built up to be a great business, so I think they do not understand what they are letting themselves in for in the great majority of cases.

Normally it is because of the circumstances they find themselves in - that is, they have a drug habit, or are destitute and without support, there is the need for survival, they are coerced, misused, forced, threatened, are subjected to violence both emotional and physical, have a feeling of not being wanted, feel worthless, desperate, and the list goes on. One would find that there would be, I would suggest, something of that in just about every person involved in the area of prostitution.

What legalising brothels does is say that we understand all of this, so to satisfy all of these scenarios we need to make the transition easier for you. It beggars belief, in my view. If it was a legitimate business, one that we would be proud to have our families and children involved in, a clear option for our youth, I could understand a strong push to legalise the industry. However, it does not meet any of these criteria and therefore, in my view, it is just not supportable. We know it is happening and has happened for an eternity. So has drug taking occurred for decades and eternity. Pot smoking, pill popping, heroin injecting, drug snorting and many other drugs and forms of drugs have been taken in many different ways. So if this bill gets up, can we expect a bill later on being introduced to support those habits?

We have no need to come on board with those other States in this regard, Mr Deputy President. Let them see us for what they want. We offer a wonderful lifestyle. Let us not succumb to the tragic mistakes made by these other States. They have tried this legislation and it has failed. Surely we must learn from those experiences of the other States and around the world.

Mr Aird - So you do not believe in any legislation at all then?

Mr DEAN - No, I agree with legislation. I will be referring shortly to some legislation that currently applies.

Mr Aird - I beg your pardon? What did you say then?

Mr DEAN - What I said was, I will be referring to some legislation that currently applies to prostitution and as to how the matter can be policed.

I want to refer to some of the documents now. I have had some documents supporting the bill but, as I said, I find it amazing and unbelievable in fact the number of documents opposing the bill. I think I had about three to four documents only and they were organisations referred to, I think, by the member for Rowallan. From all the individual people corresponding with me, I did not get one who supported this bill and that was a very significant issue.

Mr Deputy President, I want to just refer to the briefings of Wednesday 15 June. At the outset I must say that I was appalled - upset, I guess - at some of the comments that came from some of the members responsible for the carriage of the bill and through the preparation stage. Particularly I refer to a statement made to the effect, and I think I have it right and I stand to be corrected, that what was wanted was a nice legal operation and with no harm to anyone. A comment to that effect was made during the briefing. I was not sure if I was hearing right at the time and I sought some confirmation from another member in fact who confirmed my worst fears that the statement had been made, or a similar statement to that had been made. I just emphasise 'and no one will be harmed.'

Mr Martin - Who said that?

Mr DEAN - It was a statement made during a briefing that we were given last Wednesday in committee room 1 -

Mr Martin - What member?

Mr DEAN - By a member supporting, or who was involved in, the carriage of this legislation, supporting the position of the Government.

Ms Forrest - It was a flippant remark - a nice clean activity with no harm to anyone.

Mr DEAN - The comment I am going to make there is that some people, in my view, live in fairyland. Certainly the person making that statement, in my view, failed to look at a lot of other reasons -

Sitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.

Mr DEAN - Mr President, at the time of the conclusion of the morning session I made some reference to 'and no-one will be harmed' or words to that effect. I need to clarify my position and I apologise to any government member who may have thought that I was suggesting that they made this comment. The comment in fact was made by a government departmental employee, Mr President, so I clarify that. I apologise if there was any misunderstanding in that respect.

I want to follow on from where I was in relation to that comment, Mr President, and I say this: where have they been for the last years - that is, what research did they do? Did they listen to the girls who have worked in the industry? On Wednesday, Linda, Shannon and Rachel all gave chilling accounts of their experiences whilst involved in prostitution. They identified the abuse that they received and the rapes that they were submitted to. They referred to sodomy, blackmail and appalling work expectations. They outlined some of those work expectations: having to work whilst they were sick, whilst they were menstruating in actual fact - which to me was absolutely appalling, and I have difficulty in coming to terms with some of it - being treated as machines, their bodies being abused in such ways that many people in this Chamber today would not be capable of imagining, Mr President. Gross acts occurred.

Their emotions, physical appearances and voice tones told me enough without the words to tell me what they went through; that is, sheer hell, there and back - atrocious behaviour. It could not be identified as anything other than that, Mr President, and here we are going down the track of wanting to legalise that.

To make that comment that 'no-one will be harmed', in my opinion, is a failure to understand what prostitution is all about.

Ms Thorp - It's an admirable aim, isn't it, to want nobody to be harmed.

Mr DEAN - It is an admirable aim for nobody to be harmed and I support that. Nobody wants anybody to be harmed in this profession. Of course they do not. But the reality is that they are harmed and that is the point I am making. That is the evidence that we are getting. There are very few people involved in that industry by clear choice. There are reasons giving rise to their being in that profession and I went through a number of those reasons previously.

I want to say this, Mr President, that the act of consensual sex is a wonderful thing. Paid sex, where the female is vulnerable, abused, frightened, drugged and emotionally disturbed in my view is akin to criminal acts. I would pose the question again: how many stable and supported females consciously and voluntarily go into prostitution? The number would be minuscule, in my view, and that is the evidence that I am being provided with. Of course these women are harmed, both physically and emotionally, and, as I said, to suggest otherwise is not to understand exactly what prostitution is all about.

TasCOSS in the Mercury on 17 June - and that has previously been referred to - made some comment about asking MLCs to think above and beyond their own moral standards in considering this bill, Mr President. Let me say this: I have no problems with accepting prostitution, that is, paid sex where the act is absolutely consensual and made between two rational, healthy, sober adults. I do not accept it when it occurs in other circumstances and I have witnessed those other circumstances where people are acting because of the pressures and situations in which they find themselves. As I said, the evidence clearly shows me that the greatest majority of women in this industry are not there of their own free will. I have not spoken to a prostitute, Mr President, either in my past position as a police officer of 35 years or while researching and dealing with this bill as a politician, who is or was in the industry freely and voluntarily as a workplace choice.

As a police officer, Mr President, I served for a period with both the homicide squad and the vice squad in Sydney and therefore I had, in a professional capacity I should say, a lot of contact with these people working in this industry. During my overseas service as a police officer in Cyprus, again in a professional capacity I had contact with many females working in this industry and over all of that time I never met one individual who was prepared to put their hand up and say, 'I am here by choice, I want to be in the industry, I like the industry, I want to work in it'. I did not meet one. In actual fact, the people I met were, in most cases, sad and desperate cases and in most instances they were really pleading for help in another way. Those who believe that women make a perfectly rational decision in joining the industry in my view should rethink that position because that would very rarely be the case.

I want to briefly look at the definition of consent in the Criminal Code. If we look at consent in the Criminal Code, Mr President, there are a number of areas that it covers, and I quote:

'2A. Consent

(1) In the Code, unless the contrary intention appears, "consent" means free agreement.

(2) Without limiting the meaning of "free agreement", and without limiting what may constitute "free agreement" or "not free agreement", a person does not freely agree to an act if the person' -

It goes into a number of areas there, Mr President, identifying where consent is not consent in actual fact. I quote the last point:

'(h) asleep, unconscious or so affected by alcohol or another drug as to be unable to form a rational opinion in respect of the matter for which consent is required; or

(i) is unable to understand the nature of the act.'

Mr President, the point I am making is that many of these people involved in that situation are not freely consenting in all of the circumstances.

I would agree with the comments of TasCOSS that if legalisation should occur then there needs to be laws that will provide exiting opportunities, appropriately funded, supporting programs for these people to move out of the business with appropriate support and rehabilitation. In other words, there should be properly funded programs by the Government, in my view, for these people to move into when they want to leave that profession. That came out very strongly in the briefings that we had. It seemed that there was a dearth of programs out there for these people to move into. The one in Western Australia was referred to. I just want to add there, how can a civilised country, State, ever contemplate taking advantage of these very vulnerable and desperate women? In most cases, they are really pleading for help, in my view.

[2.45 p.m.]
Mr President, the laws were referred to during that briefing, particularly by the police officers who were talking to us. I heard during the briefings continued references to the inadequate laws to support children and of the difficulties of policing the current laws. One reason given, Mr President, was that it was too expensive and too resource-intensive. Well, it is certainly is resource-intensive and I again can speak from experience that it does take a lot of resources, it does take a lot of time to investigate these matters. We were told when this bill gets up everything will be all right - that is what we were told during the briefing. We will be able to control prostitution and, more importantly, protect our kids. We will be able to use listening devices and the other technology. Some people might recall that I raised a question with one of the members briefing us at the time in this regard. I want to say this, and I want to say this fairly strongly, and unfortunately the member for Elwick is not in his chair but I notice he is in the back of the Chamber, that if there are kids out there now involved in prostitution, being sexually abused and no action is being taken, that would be a deplorable and reprehensible dereliction of duty on the part of many people. It would be outrageous and unimaginable if that situation were occurring and nothing was being done about it.

In fact, Mr President, we were given by one of the people briefing us some information concerning a racket occurring on the north west coast, allegedly involving, as I understand it, 11 and 12-year-old boys. If that is the situation then one would expect police to be vigorously out there investigating that matter - the laws are there, they can do it; they do not have to wait for this legislation. If it is not happening, to me, that would be an atrocious situation.

Listening devices and other technologies have been available lawfully to police now for many years. They have been successfully used to gather evidence in many complicated and hard cases and I would suggest many harder cases than it would take to get the evidence in relation to prostitution. So those rules have been there, Mr President, and it is quite lawful. I am not quite sure when the Listening Devices Act was enacted but it was a number of years ago, that I am aware of - quite a number of years ago. The laws are already there to protect children. It is, and always has been, an offence to involve children in sexual acts - to solicit children for sex.

The only defence to sexual acts with children is specified in the Criminal Code where, in some circumstances, it is not an offence where the person is of the same age or where the age difference is two or three years. There are certain defences there in some circumstances.

I want to refer to the Criminal Code and identify some of the offences that are already identified within the Criminal Code, Mr President. Section 124: 'Sexual intercourse with a young person' states:

'Any person who has unlawful sexual intercourse with another person who is under the age of 17 years is guilty of a crime.'

Section 125A of the Criminal Code, 'Maintaining a sexual relationship with a young person', states:

'A person who maintains a sexual relationship with a young person who is under the age of 17 years, and to whom he or she is not married, is guilty of a crime.'

Section 125B, 'Indecent act with a young person', states:

'Any person who does any indecent act with, or directed at, another person who is under the age of 17 years is guilty of a crime.'

Then we can go into the other offences of indecent assault, aggravated sexual assault, and at section 128 of the Criminal Code, 'Procuration', it reads:

'Any person who -

… procures another person to become a common prostitute, either in this State or elsewhere; or

(c) procures another person to leave this State with intent that such a person may become an inmate of, or frequent, a brothel elsewhere; or

(d) procures another person to leave that person's usual place of abode in this State, such place not being a brothel, with intent that such a person may for the purposes of prostitution become an inmate of, or frequent, a brothel, either in this State or elsewhere' -

There is another offence at 129, 'Procuring by threats, fraud or drugs'. They are just a few offences that I have looked at in the Criminal Code. There are probably others.

It is also an offence - and this came up in the briefing - of people who are on the outside; in other words, the people who are not directly involved. What legislation do we have to satisfy those needs? My understanding of the Criminal Code is limited somewhat as a police officer but the member for Nelson would have a much greater skill in this area. To instigate or incite, to aid or abet, any of those things under the Criminal Code is also an offence and makes that instigator, inciter, aider or abetter a principal offender in any of these crimes as well. That also refers to the Police Offences Act in the same regard, so that with current offences under the Police Offences Act, anybody aiding or abetting those offences can also be charged with that offence. If that is not enough, there are other Commonwealth acts. We will also have introduced into this Chamber - tomorrow, as I understand it - another bill which specifically relates to sexual offences committed on children. That will be referred to in the Criminal Code Amendment (Child Exploitation) Bill 2005. I have not had time to look at that in great length at this stage, Mr President, but this morning I opened it up and I looked at section 125C - this is the one we will discuss tomorrow, as I understand it - 'Procuring unlawful sexual intercourse with person under 17 years'. There are a lot of other situations under there as well. Another one: 'Communications with intent to procure person under 17 years' to be involved in sexual activity. So we have another bill coming into this Chamber in relation to this issue.
Mr President, I do not accept that we do not currently have laws in place that allow us to handle and work with these matters. Having said that, I am not saying that we probably cannot do with some more or that it could be made easier. I am saying that there is an opportunity there for us to look at the current legislation we have. It is a concern to have children involved in this type of activity. It concerns me, and why wouldn't it as a police officer? Of course I have concerns about it and I want to see things in the best light possible to ensure these things do not happen. We ought to look at the current legislation and we can start amending some of that if it does not quite go far enough or if the penalties are not severe enough.

Ms Thorp - That is going down the criminalisation path -

Mr DEAN - No, as I understand this legislation, it is to legalise the setting up of brothels which in fact supports those people running these businesses. Am I right in that?

Ms Thorp - If you have a regulated situation I would contend that the majority of brothel keepers that we have in Hobart and in Tasmania at the moment would be unable to get licences.

Mr DEAN - Use the laws you have, use your laws about -

Mr Harriss interjecting.
Mr Aird - You want to get a séance going.

Mr PRESIDENT - Order, order. The honourable member is entitled to make his speech as he wishes.

Mr DEAN - that some people were probably uncomfortable with the positions that were being taken.

The next thing that we had in that briefing, Mr President - and there was some comment on this - is that Tasmania is different. I do not know, people, how many times that you heard that in that briefing, but I heard it a number of times. At one stage I was going to write down the number of times it was mentioned, but I failed to do so. 'Tasmania is different', 'but Tasmania is different'. How many times did we hear this during the briefing? This was also heavily relied on, as I understand it, to support the bill. It was said that the bad experiences throughout the world with legalisation would not happen here. 'We are small, we are isolated, it will not happen here', that is what we heard. I know my hearing is not the best, but I think I was able to understand that message coming through fairly clearly at that briefing.

This, Mr President, is another indication to me of the insular world in which some people work. I mentioned fairyland a while ago, but it certainly identifies with the insular position of some people, in my view. People would know this without my saying it, but our population is increasing, our economy continues to grow. We are now seen as a very popular State for development, a residential option, our tourism market has grown remarkably and continues to thrive, and that is great. Only on Thursday of last week we were told that our shipping ports will double imports and exports by 2025, and if it continues at the rate it currently is, in actual fact it will treble by 2025. That is another indication of just how well this State is doing and how we are thriving, and supports the fact that tourism is likely to continue in this State in great numbers for a long time into the future.

We have the pulpmill which, if it gets up, will change Tasmania forever, and we know of the number of people that project is likely to bring into Tasmania if it eventuates. More people, production activity, more schools, housing, and the list goes on, and we were told that during the Estimates of the need to even now look at more schools, to look at more housing, to take a good look at where we are in Tasmania. So the predictions that we will not see the detrimental happenings of the world with this legislation are voiced on false premises, in my opinion. All the evidence we have on this subject tells us that if we go down this path it will come back to haunt us, and I have no doubt when one looks across the world and across the other States that at the end of the day we will regret it at this time.

Ms Thorp - But you do support the intention of the legislation?

Mr DEAN - I support the intention of the legislation, I do.

Ms Thorp - It is to regulate.

Mr DEAN - I do. I am going to refer in a moment in my conclusion to the conclusion of the Higgins report which I previously referred to.

[3.00 p.m.]
I did indicate earlier, Mr President, that I would refer to one or two of the e-mails that I received just so that people can get an understanding of some of the issues that were being raised with us and some of the comments that were being made. I have just picked out three or four of the hundreds that I received. I guess all would have received this one. It is from a nursing sister who is involved in family planning, and I quote:

'I was appalled to hear on ABC Radio this morning that this Bill was passed by the Lower House yesterday. I am also appalled that the name INDUSTRY is being used. Let's call it what it is. A Bill for the promotion and extension of Sexual PROMISCUITY for the monetary gain of a few business people, to the DETRIMENT of SOCIETY IN GENERAL and FAMILY LIFE IN PARTICULAR. I am a retired Nursing Sister who for 8 years worked with Family Planning in Hobart. I know only too well that using condoms (so called, SAFE SEX) is not a guarantee for the prevention of unwanted pregnancies, HIV, genital warts, chlamydia etc etc. Nor will CONDOMS (SAFE SEX) ever prevent emotional abuse.'

This letter continues, Mr President:

'If we are going to use WOMEN in this SEX INDUSTRY why don't we update it in 2005 Why not MODERNISE AND MECHANISE IT. YES!! Why not use ROBOTS INSTEAD OF WOMEN!! At least that would prevent WOMEN from being DEGRADED. Instead, the MEN would be DEGRADED. Surely one option is as bad as the other.'

Mrs Jamieson - Change your model every time.

Mr DEAN - There is a little bit of humour in a very serious matter. I quote part only of another e-mail, Mr President:

'legislation of prostitution I believe simply works in the interests of those who control the sex industry, who want to expand their business.

And lastly because I believe the interstate experience in Australia where prostitution has been legalised has shown there are many bad experiences when governments take this action Legilisation [sic] of prostitution simply drives prostitution underground.'

Ms Thorp - Through you, Mr President - I find it extraordinary that in light of the debate, which has already established the fact that it is a complex issue, the simplistic attitudes of someone who sends an e-mail is taken as gospel. That is what I find extraordinary.

Mr DEAN - No, most of the matters that are brought out in these e-mails are supportable by the abundance of evidence that there is out there. In most of these e-mails, if I were to read through the rest of the e-mail, they refer to the research that some of these people did for themselves in relation to this matter. Some of that research material that these people used has already been referred to in this Chamber today, Mr President, by other speakers.

That e-mail goes on, and I will just quote the next part of it:

'Police checks on prospective brothel owners to make sure that they do not have criminal offences on their records are not neccarily [sic] going to be effective. People with convictions can effectively run legal brothels whilst not being the official owners through fronts people or organisations.'

That is a significant issue raised here. We do know that there is evidence that people of criminal background do have associations with brothels on the mainland and in other areas because they use members of their families with good reputations or untarnished reputations as the front people in some of those organisations.

I will read the next one, and I suspect, Mr President, that other members received this one too. This one is an e mail received from an ex industry worker. I quote:

'I am writing to you as a very concerned Australian. It has been brought to my attention about the possible changes to the prostitution laws.

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS VERY SERIOUSLY - TAKE THE TIME TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION FOR THE COMMUNITY!

I say this as an ex worker. I worked the streets in Brisbane every night for 12 months. I stopped work 7 years ago but the emotional and mental residue still lingers and some of the wounding is still there. Once I had made the exit from the industry I struggled to be released from the guilt and shame that I carried around. This is not an industry that should be made any easier to access.'

The last e mail I refer to is that of a teacher employed within the Education department - again, all members would have received this e mail. I quote:

'As a husband, a father and a teacher, I have some deep reservations about legislation such as this. I am aware of the call to provide a sex industry that is regulated and the circumstances that some sex workers might find themselves in due to an unregulated system. In no way would I want to leave anyone in a situation where victimisation may occur or harm come to that person.

However, I feel strongly that legalising the industry would not solve the problem. Regardless of the reasons why individuals may end up working in an industry such as this, we need to ask ourselves - as individuals and as a society - "Is this kind of industry one that we would want anyone to seek employment in?" I would not like to think that the sex industry is perceived as a valid career path for our young people, which legitimising it essentially does. Would any of you advise that it be included in career advice given to students in schools, and if not, on what basis if you allow the legislation to pass?'.

Mr President, I want to finish on two points that were raised with me on Monday of this week. One came from a lady who had lived next door to a brothel that was working and operating in Launceston and she took some time to explain to me the sheer hell - they are the words that she used - that they were put through during the time of the operations of those premises. She referred to vehicles coming and going all night long, early hours of the morning, dogs barking, her door being knocked on on occasions - mistaken for the home next door - the drunken people, drug people and all of the other carryings-on that were going on in that area.

This lady took some time to relate that to me. She said that in the end it moved on to another area, and she said that she would feel for those people in the same way that she felt herself about it. Her position was that under no circumstances should we be supporting this because, at the end of the day, it is going to create horrendous problems in relation to the locating of these premises.

Some members might be aware of this next example. Mr President may well be aware of this. A brothel was situated right next to a school in the Invermay locality at Launceston. The premises were a real distraction to the youth at that school. There were horrendous problems associated with it and a lot of publicity was given to it. The result of that was that the place was burnt down. I do not know whether it was deliberate or an accident but that was the outcome of the premises next door to that school.

In conclusion, I want to refer to the Higgins report. As I said earlier, this is available to everybody. I want to refer to part of the conclusion of that document. I should add that under no circumstances did I ask Mr Higgins to come to this conclusion. I asked him to draw the conclusion from all of the research and evidence that he was able to come up with. My position was that if it supports this legislation then that would probably also be my argument at the end of the day. So I told him to keep an open and clear mind in relation to this matter whilst researching it. I quote from part of the conclusion, Mr President:

'This is why one must recommend that a more wide-ranging and effective review be conducted in Tasmania before any action is taken regarding the regulation of the state's sex industry. The 1998 1999 Community Development Committee's inquiry into the need for legislative reform of Tasmania's sex industry seemed to presume the framing of rules would achieve certain objectives, but did not consider the negative consequences that may follow.'

Indeed, that is a position I came to on reading through all of that report as well.

'If such a review is carried in Tasmania, there are a number of areas to look into, that the Committee neglected. Firstly, is the fact that the interstate experience has shown that legalisation may not prove possible to restrict the ownership of brothels to the extent the Committee may have hoped. Further, issues such as the opening up of the market for the trafficking of overseas workers and the further marginalisation of drug-addicted adolescents that engage in prostitution are major areas of concern that needs more thorough research.

Finally, the interstate experience has shown that Tasmania needs to be better prepared when considering issues of law enforcement. Effectively monitoring prostitution is a complex and time-consuming problem and a well co ordinated and resourced body that identifies with criminal behaviour is needed for this.'

That came out from the briefings with the police. It is a difficult area for police to work in and I accept that but it is pleasing that Mr Higgins was able to identify that also. I quote again from that same report:

'Such a review would be in the best interests for Tasmania and those involved in the sex industry. The interstate experience has shown, above all, that jurisdictions must be careful about legalising things just because nothing else has been successful. The practice often doesn't equal the theory. Legislation is not always the answer to the problems that it intends to solve.'

Having said that, Mr President, I want to refer briefly to one or two of the comments made by the two young ladies from Western Australia when they were talking to us in a briefing. I will make a couple of points and then I will conclude.

Ms Thorp - They obviously made an impression. We have heard lots of witnesses but we always come back to these two, don't we?

Mr DEAN - I thought that these two ladies were very open about the subject. I thought that they brought out a number of issues that I certainly was not familiar with in the industry as to some of the things that were occurring and what they were put through.

Mr Martin - Other witnesses did too.

Mr DEAN - We heard another young lady from Tasmania talking about it and very clearly, she does not like the industry but she is simply saying -

Mr Martin - She was in favour of the bill.

Mr DEAN - Yes, for the reasons that she put forward which were, quite obviously, different to the other girls. The other girls were saying it will not work.

Mr Harriss - The local lady corroborates the evidence of the two from the mainland, she said.

Mr DEAN - That is right. She did not dispute any of the information that was provided to us by the two ladies from Western Australia.

Mr Aird - But you would say someone in Tasmania would have a better understanding of what is going on in Tasmania than someone who flies in from Western Australia for 12 hours.

Ms Thorp - You wonder who pays for the fares, don't you?

Mrs Smith - I don't suppose the Government did like they did those that they flew in, so let's be fair.

Mr DEAN - I am not going to go down that track. The sniping can occur and they can get around it the best way that they would like. But these are some of the issues that came out. I think the member for Nelson referred to some of these things - and I am not going to labour the point - such as there is a set number of people that they have to sleep with per night, no matter what. I think it was 15 per night, I am not sure, but there was a number identified that they must -

Ms Thorp - Is that benchmarking?

[3.15 p.m.]
Mr DEAN - Yes, that is benchmarking - they have no option, they work when they are sick. Another comment made is that these people do not care about the girls - and we are talking about legal brothels here in some respects - they treat them like machines. There are no workplace standards. 'We have no rights' or 'We had no rights' in their case; they have left the industry. They referred to Linda's House of Hope and how that was a saviour for them and the only way they saw of getting out of the industry. They commented on the fact that there were no other government-funded organisations in their State that could assist them. They supported Linda's House of Hope and were very favourable in relation to the lady running that organisation. You are raped, it happens a lot; making complaints is a waste of time; you are blacklisted and all you have to do is to change brothels.

Mr Parkinson - Presumably that is all under the present law?

Mr DEAN - The comment they made was, 'No different between legal and illegal brothels. Probably better off working in illegal brothels'. They said that in that situation they have some form of control because the operators of those illegal places know that, if they wanted to, the girls working for them could probably go down the street and complain to the police, or make it difficult for them in other areas. They were saying it was beneficial to them to work in the illegal premises. They referred to the discrimination that occurs within the industry. They identified that you are paid on looks, figure and a number of other things that they went into - and I do not think I need to go into those in this Chamber at this moment. They said that if we go down this track we will regret it in years to come. 'It is an injustice against women'.

Both of these young ladies told us that they had attempted to commit suicide. If I am correct, they indicated they had attempted to commit suicide on more than one occasion because of having to live with what they had gone through. That is a pretty sad indictment on the industry, in my view. I commenced my second reading contribution with a good example in relation to an overdose by a young lady working in the industry when she was unable to cope with what had happened to her.

'Unlicensed premises are better because we also have some control over the owners. We determine how many clients we serve. Security is better; protection is no different'. The last comment they made - and I wrote down - was 'There is no right way to do the wrong thing'.

Mr President, in the current circumstances I cannot support this legislation. If the bill gets up, there are certain amendments I will be seeking and I have already flagged them.

Ms Thorp - But you do support the intent of the bill?

Mr DEAN - It is well-intentioned but it is not the right way to go in all of the circumstances and, accordingly, I cannot support the bill as it is.